DUST Search - Facebook is a shitstorm

True Adamance wrote:

Scheneighnay McBob wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Billy Jr wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

i kind of expected that. Even despite being a culture that preaches the gospel of personal freedoms and civil liberties for all mankind it would make sense that is would polarise people.

I'm all for it. In NZ same sex marriage has been legalised for some time now.

That being said I do understand why it would be hard to accept for orthodox christian religious groups. Without getting too deeply into the debate it's a huge change for them and really flies in the face of their doctrine.

However at no point in the real world should religion impose on the happiness of people.

You forget that these religious groups pick and choose what parts they actually follow in their magic book. Because shell fish are delicious.
But that's a discussion for another day.

Well I honestly don't begrudge Christians for wanting one of their more sacred practices reserved for those who do not directly transgress the tenets of their doctrine. I mean it is/was a part of their religion and identity.

That being said religion seems to be nothing more than a means to justify why humans can make other humans miserable, it should never stand in the way of peoples happiness.

I do quite like the more introspective systems of beliefs such as Buddhism though. Admittedly not holistically, I'm one of those pick which parts you subscribe to since I'm not looking for absolution, more in terms of personal peace of mind.

The issue was that legal rights are tied to marriage.

The fight was more over the piece of paper than over religious acceptance.

Marriage is essentially one of their religious ceremonies. Without defending one side or the other surely you can understand why they might be upset. I mean I was under the impression that same-sex couples could already have had civil unions which are functionally the same as marriage but have less cultural significance.

Gotta admit I'm not really well versed on the American legal system with all its crazy and whacky whosamawhatsits and doodads.


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korrah silain True Illuminate 83	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:25:00 - [1] - Quote Gay marriage is yay marriage! XD Or if you prefer: Fuckum all and let your personality sort them out.
korrah silain True Illuminate 83	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:30:00 - [2] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: True Adamance wrote: Billy Jr wrote: True Adamance wrote: i kind of expected that. Even despite being a culture that preaches the gospel of personal freedoms and civil liberties for all mankind it would make sense that is would polarise people. I'm all for it. In NZ same sex marriage has been legalised for some time now. That being said I do understand why it would be hard to accept for orthodox christian religious groups. Without getting too deeply into the debate it's a huge change for them and really flies in the face of their doctrine. However at no point in the real world should religion impose on the happiness of people. You forget that these religious groups pick and choose what parts they actually follow in their magic book. Because shell fish are delicious. But that's a discussion for another day. Well I honestly don't begrudge Christians for wanting one of their more sacred practices reserved for those who do not directly transgress the tenets of their doctrine. I mean it is/was a part of their religion and identity. That being said religion seems to be nothing more than a means to justify why humans can make other humans miserable, it should never stand in the way of peoples happiness. I do quite like the more introspective systems of beliefs such as Buddhism though. Admittedly not holistically, I'm one of those pick which parts you subscribe to since I'm not looking for absolution, more in terms of personal peace of mind. The issue was that legal rights are tied to marriage. The fight was more over the piece of paper than over religious acceptance. Marriage is essentially one of their religious ceremonies. Without defending one side or the other surely you can understand why they might be upset. I mean I was under the impression that same-sex couples could already have had civil unions which are functionally the same as marriage but have less cultural significance. Gotta admit I'm not really well versed on the American legal system with all its crazy and whacky whosamawhatsits and doodads. No you are wrong on a couple points 1) marriage (that is a ceremonial life bond of mates) is a ceremony that is not inherently Christian and not only predates Christian morality but was also independently developed spontaneously across multiple cultures with different customs so the religious Christian right has no right to claim it and codify it. 2)because it has become so intertwined with several civil rights (adoption living wills, taxes, etc.) Not allowing gays to marry is a form of legal discrimination, that is it removes rights and protections afforded to hetero couples, so no marriage is not "just" one of their ceremonies. Because there is weight of law behind it it is against the establishment clause to not recognize these marriages. Edit:Gay marriage is yay marriage! XD Or if you prefer: Fuckum all and let your personality sort them out.
korrah silain True Illuminate 103	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:03:00 - [3] - Quote True Adamance wrote: korrah silain wrote: No you are wrong on a couple points 1) marriage (that is a ceremonial life bond of mates) is a ceremony that is not inherently Christian and not only predates Christian morality but was also independently developed spontaneously across multiple cultures with different customs so the religious Christian right has no right to claim it and codify it. Fair statement but is not the common wedding one might go to derived from cultures heavily influenced by their religion? I'm not particularly interested in who started what instead more where are the origins of the modern wedding ceremony. You don't need to look back to antiquity to find that. They are still claiming dominion over all marriage as an excuse to both be bigots and push discriminatory legislation, also cultures naturally evolve over time, so saying their culture doesn't permit it is invalid as it both assumes everyone in the country should conform to their cultural rules, and that their culture is immune to change, so no they really don't have a right to get upset beyond petty homophobia. Further expounding upon the cultural change point Americas cultural attitudes towards marriage have clearly changed, the majority have supported this for awhile its only the vocal hardcore conservatives pushing the typical Christian persecution complex to try and enforce a theocracy that are upset, and honestly those people should imo be found too mentally deficient to HAVE an opinion, let alone vote. In short none of their arguments hold water so no I don't believe they should be upset and only are because they are brainwashed into listening to manipulative demagouges preying on their feet of the "other" to maintain and attempt to claim power and money from them. I guaren-damn-te that if they met an actual gay or trans or whatever person instead of being presented with a stereotype they would be forced to change their tune, or be intellectually dishonest with themselves. But then I'm very opinionated the other way so I suppose the only part I stand by 100% is the first part about their lack of legitimate reasons to be upset. you ever get to that point where you know you should sleep, but ya just...dont? yeah...me too.
korrah silain True Illuminate 103	Posted - 2015.07.01 22:36:00 - [4] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I think you are going out of your way to obfuscate my questions in hopes of a persuasive argument. You don't need to convince anyone....I think we are in universal agreement this is a positive movement. I'm merely asking where we might identify the origins of a contemporary wedding ceremony, from which cultures, and from which culture dominated by which religions. Nah I just got a bit ranty there...I do that. However that is a complex question, the obvious answer is as a western civilization our cultural idea of marriage originates in judeo-christian tradition. This presents a few facts that need to be taken into account. 1) the bible says nothing about gay marriage, in fact the only reference to homosexuality being a sin (I am aware of) is Leviticus 20:13, which presents multiple issues as Leviticus also has rules against eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabric, so can we really use this as a basis of moral judgement from a cultural standpoint while remaining intellectually honest? I would say no, further I have read interpretations that that passage from Leviticus is referring to the fact that women are to be treated as chattle according to the bible, so to lay with another man in that way is reducing him to an object etc. This also raises cultural questions that are for the most part ignored, but this is my more tangental point. 2) the more important fact is that Christianity has been splintered since before America was founded, and has many sects with many different beliefs and approaches to this issue, some have no problem with it some do not, so the question is which judeo-christian tradition informs our idea of marriage,and the answer is...all of them? None of them? Really the fact that our country was founded on the idea of freedom of and from religeon(most of the founding Fathers were not christian) means that ultimately the religious prescriptions of individual religeons within a cermony which traces its roots to them can be ignored as we please because again cultures, and views, and interpretations change and evolve. 3)more over our more recent shift towards multiculturalism means culturally no one culture(in this case judeo-christian hyperconservatives) have a right to impose their beliefs on others, especially if that is tangled with the law. Does that make sense? God I'm terrible at expressing ideas sometimes... Ok in case it doesn't let me put it this way: largely the concept of marriage in the west is influenced, and defined by judeo-christian tradition. However the culture of America and the ideals put forth has its influence as well and if we are to be honest to those ideals(equality etc.) then the ceremony (and law)can and should be updated and applied to and by whoever. Is that better? you ever get to that point where you know you should sleep, but ya just...dont? yeah...me too.
korrah silain True Illuminate 103	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:40:00 - [5] - Quote Billy Jr wrote: korrah silain wrote: most of the founding Fathers were not christian The sad part about this is that I'm pretty sure there are people that believe that Moses was one of the founding Fathers. Because, you know, logic. I'll go be depressed about that in my "This is why people are idiots" corner. If you think that's false you sir are an idiot. you ever get to that point where you know you should sleep, but ya just...dont? yeah...me too.